############################## # Benthic Observing System # Concept DR/PDR # Mon 27 Mar 2017 1300-1600 # Pacific Forum MBARI # Attending: "Chad Kecy" "Francois Cazenave" "Kent Headley" "Eric J Martin" "Craig Okuda" "Bob Herlien" "Mary Gleason" "Rick Starr" "Rick Botman" "Dirk Rosen" "Francisco Chavez" "Kelly Benoit-Bird" "Chris Scholin" "Doug Au" "Alana Sherman" "Paul McGill" "Ed Mellinger" "Jon Erickson" "Dale Graves" "Mike Parker" "Tyler Maricich" "Ryan Fields" "Figursky Jared" Invited "Craig Dawe" "Chad Waluk" "Chad English" "Richard Henthorn" "Jim Barry" ############################## # TODO # Provide feedback to project team this week (3/31) ############################## # Concept Design Review # start 13:00 [ck presenting] [da]: is there a requirement for Depth of Field; How much lighting needed to get video [ck]: TNC requirements are better defined, less so for other [as]: what's the path for doing further study? [ck]: may have some time, depending on resources remaining, after deployment [dg]: are we ignoring mbari requirements? are they pushing design in any specific direction [ck]: we keeping them in mind, but not letting them limit us; we have some budget limitations as well; but not ignoring [cs]: how much is bidget overrage? what is forecast? [ck]: TNC will help w/ winch, tether; ~120k vs 40k [ck]: component selection, we need 8+1 cameras end 13:25 ############################## # Preliminary Design Review # focused on TNC deployment # Q3 2017 # start 13:25 [ck] science background, motivation 1st gen lander single stereo cam, rotating base crab pot base [dr]? took a minute [mg]: one rpm, needed about 10 min to see fish, get sample needed w/ new lander, need to do many more sites, faster operation time [rs]: base was pretty stable; needed 8-10 rotations to get sample needed [kb]: how long before normal behavior observe [rs]: fish would hide when noisy (hitting rock, eg); found in post analysis, 2-3 min before seeing max number of fish/species requirements functional, additional for TNC load bearing tether simpler L&R record 8 HD video feeds, fast upload concept... [em - L&R system ] ~13:35-13:57 option: soft jacket fiber tether option: standard CTD cable [as]: what is volume/qty of batteries you'd need to do mbari [ ]: haven't done analysis; we've done some prelim [dg]: plan to use ctd winches, wires - can you get video up 4km of ctd wire - [ ]: maybe 1 km w/ adsl? [ ]: [je]: 1.75 safety factor not 2 - maybe conservative, 7000lb break strength; could save cost [ ]: going by grech, maybe [kb]: what other platforms, boats considered [mg]: fishing boats [rs]: fisheries boats, fulmar, noaa boats, may not have winch and wire [ ]: fiber would be harder to install on fishing boats [rb]: is it worth reconsidering use of separate cables [rs]: time savings is important [rb]: ... [da]: how will the solution be determined; seems really about budget - where does TNC want to invest [as]: or complexity of tether service issues, vs possibilty of [bh]: do we need fiber? is that a nice to have? [ck]: boils down to bandwidth, distance - (but 300 m), can we get by w/ twisted pair? [bh]: are there ctd wires w/ twisted pairs []: can get ... on coax; would probably need separate wires [bh]: how much bw needed for []: chad will cover [as]: not a strict requirement to have fiber, but has better expansion [cs]: could begin w/ ctd wire, then develop fiber later? [ck]: some internal stuff would need to changes [kb]: [ ]: cost scales with winch size [fc - mechanical, cameras] 13:57-1425 [je]: why sapphire ports []: if budget allows, better bc less scratching [rb]: does it retain stereo calibration if disaseemb [kb]: low light - how to define and test []: not very careful analysis - [kb]: what is ISO range (functional) []: stated 50000; 500 used for test photos, but not done a rigorous test [dg]: any remote controls, aperture, focus? []: no, fixed [dg]: could it blow out scene, eg. anemone []: dimmable lights, but typically not by much [dg]: what about sd recorders, [co]: and we need stills, framegrabs not good enough [rb]: ... [ck]: controlling cameras, need to be able [rb]: what about sync for stereo imaging [ck]: will cover later base concepts: lg feet, lg ring, pogo stick stereo imaging performance testing [sa]: how far out could you see? []: pretty far 2m, hard to get stereo due to sediment [rs]: in tank could see whole width of tank []: used gopro in COTS housings for tests [rb]: what is shallowest depth [rs]: 50m [ck - electronics] 14:25- camera housing functions power budget [bh]: what's using 100W hotel [ck]: video servers, converters, controller [rb]: from spec or measured [ck]: going by spec [dg]: this design assumes all power from tether? [ck]: Yes AC/DC options Tether selection [eme]: cost difference? order of magnitude? [em]: ~4x, including winch, connectors, slip rings, [ck]: technically possible to do hd, but budget not there to send hd up tether, 15k for 8xHD + 1xSD (steering cam) [rb]: bandwidth of dsl extenders; experience is less than spec [as]: did use, but did get some video over 1 km, and awhile ago [rb]: spectrum for dsl and video overlapped, code latest encoders, etc. got 10 MBPS over umbilical. training possible for lower bw, but hard to get theoretical bw [rs]: ... [ck]: if we push hd to surface, need 8x hd recording too [dg]: $600 for sd card hd recorders 3 in 1U rack [ck]: bandwidth, distance, cost are key [rb]: plc form factor takes real estate - not cheap [rb]: timecode overlay? []: looking at timecodes for different cameras [rb]: camera timecodes could wander, firstgen cams didn't have clocks, individual cameras can drift [mg] need to be able to sync cameras can use light method - crude but effective [break] [kh - software] 15:00-15:15 [ck - summary, schedule, discussion] 15:15 - 16:05 [dr]: 3-4 wk terminations on copper umbilical 110 deployments in tough worried about fiber tether option could see growing into it concern is getting it hung up in rocks hard to maintain structural integrity, higher level of operational personnel for reterminating have gotten them in the props [dg]: adds half hour to reterm, once you know how, if you use polished connectors [je]: much simpler, always know where cable is [dg]: structurally wouldn't put two together...no mid span reterm; need to invest in longer cable, rather than multiple lengths [em]: have to look at each boat differently, some have clump weights [dg]: a lot of drag, not feasible, need clump wt w/ 30 m above, 5-10m above platform we keep use kale grip, jbox to connect strength member summary, next steps [rb]: ck, what is top concern? []: schedule [mg]: it's a noaa fisheries, externally driven schedule noted that requirements don't line up. [da]: do mary or bretty know if noaa study is waldo? (Y) is it a one shot, or ongoing? it's the 2nd yr of 3 yr project - third yr is lookging at data agree that tethered vs autonomus is different - kelly's is tethered, could go after that one be mindful of proposal process timing - got to get proposal in by June. Ken smith's lander might work for jim. Francisco may be shallower. [fc]: what is depth of (TNC) site? [mg]: 130 m [dg]: there is a section of ventana fiber that could work for that []: could just go w/ fiber, winch solution [da]: any other schedule concerns [ck]: fab, assy, test, integration [fc]: would be good to do pressure testing, prototyping; if we do in a hurry could have problems [rb]: may be able to use umbilical to hedge bets for schedule, if it's only one deployment, not many back to back []: mccartney winch, rotary joint/slipring, 6 cond, 1x fiber for 650 --- all less than 10k. but not designed for 7k lbs. winch doesn't need 7k lbs [da]: what about budget risk? are we covered for everything? [ck]: bare bones, minimal, tether, winch, lo budget counter. [da]: not considering HD video? worried about feature creep (No, not on the table) [dg]: design could change if you go other route [co]: need stills [ck]: could update to HD streaming w. same cameras [ck]: da, what do you think of plan [da]: quick turn, good to do focused reviews, communicate when schedule slips occur. keep proposal cycle in mind [chfr]: cs suggested ctd cable approach to start - was that discussed [da]: optical is the way to go, not clear we can get bandwidth and power through ctd cable w/o bigger cable [bh]: re fall deployment, noaa : is it data, or observing behavior? [rs]: nfs how to survey fishes with cameras? they like our approach. What are we not seeing with these vehicles? testing didson sonars to assess avoidance by fishes If we can establish fish avoidance with our tool, relative to other tools. [bh]: are there ways to get cameras down there [da]: complex housing design - maybe use two cameras with simpler design [bh]: testing time [mg]: at least two cameras [rs]: better to get something useful than something fancy [mg]: don't want to move too fast to preclude thinking about decision points [dg]: it's a long timeline, with many pie in sky requests [rs]: we mostly need to be able to see what's there, sizing it less important if it helps to speed things up [mg]: should test different bases, etc. - everything that affects fish behavior, avoidance [rs]: rocky areas near chan islands [chfr]: do you think this will not disturb fish [rs]: what fish will be repelled by light, mostly avoid lights and sound, may not effect all species of fish, and bias towards others. [mg]: 20 day experiment, many participants, testing their platforms one at a time [bh]: workflows: do you want to do stereo sizing on the boat in real time? [rs]: No [bh]: so may not need super high res on surface [rah]: wonder about power vs depth of field [rs]: want to test fstops, iso settings [ck]: long term, makes sense to use fiber, we'd limit ourselve early on to go copper. need feedback, this week [rs]: would it be worth making second mockup to use as backup plan? [je]: scaled mockup won't be structurally the same; don't have [da]: depends on what risk fc is trying to test/eliminate [mp]: to do a mockup is at least 1.5x fab time [fc]: deployment, structural integrity, base design, lighting....many things to test [dg]: what if you bought 3 housings that would work, but not involve ports, etc? maybe not do sizing, but could tackle FOV, lighting, can buy cameras in housings [rs]: don't really need stereo for fall, [dg]: could just use existing housings, bolt to frame [mg]: want to have shape and weight [dg]: 360 view, composite not hd [rs]: do have another project this fall to use full system [mg]: could defer other study to next year, didson gives size (?) [rs]: species composition is most important thing []: deployment in test tank, and out to shelf []: may want to test in other conditions, w. current, etc. []: clump wt.. [ck]: In next week, consider doing scaled down version for fall [da]: get list of what would be minimum set of requirements 16:05